"The coherent world that you long ago decided upon is a construction."
Is that a fact, huh? You know, for someone who doesn't know what truth is, you certainly sound very sure of things. Has it ever occurred to you that many of the things you say are inherently self-defeating propositions? You say you don't believe in truth, or you're not interested in it, or you don't know what it is...however you want to put it. You don't want to share a cab with truth; you don't want truth on your burger. Got it. You even quarantine the word behind quotation marks, as though it needed to be handled with latex gloves. So fine, truth doesn't matter. So then why should I listen to anything you say? What grounds do you have for saying any of it? If you don't hold any confidence in reason, then how did you reach these conclusions? By what means? You tell me my world is a "construction." Well, then show me. Prove it to me. Oh...there's no such thing as proof? Well, I guess I'll be moving along then. You begin to see the problem? You say you're not interested in pursuing truth; you're interested in the "different ways we look at everyday experience." Aren't you interested in looking for the truth about these things? If not, then what? Do you just want to see if you can make up enough bullshit about them to fill a book? You say reality is decided upon by a "consensus." Did you run that by a committee first? I'm sure I could find a larger group that disagreed. Does that make it wrong? (Speaking of ideas not worth sneezing at *woof* I'd cut the legs out from under it, if it had any to speak of. Perhaps you should skip Sartre and put 1984 on your reading list instead.)
So, if you're not looking for the truth, then what exactly ARE you trying to accomplish here? Are we writing a script for a new Peanut's special "This is Your Metaphysical Angst Charlie Brown"? A book that declares that there's no such thing as truth would be a fairly pointless book. It would devour itself like the Ouroboros, leaving nothing but dust on the shelf where it's sold. What would we call it, "There's No Such Thing as Truth...So I Guess That Makes That Statement Horseshit Too...Ummm, Nevermind. Have a Nice Day." Sounds kind of long. I don't see that moving many copies. I don't see there being a lot of "consensus" for the idea.
You see no reason to believe in the objective world. I see no reason to doubt it. The irony is that you keep insisting that I'm wrong, while I've always allowed for the possibility that you may be right. But then there are rules that I have to follow; I can't just make unaccountable claims. I'm forced to admit that I'm not omniscient. The truth forces me to make this concession. Meanwhile, you wish to inform me that information is an illusion. You wish to enlighten me that there's no such thing as light. You keep saying, this doesn't exist, that doesn't exist, such & such is a delusion. I'm glad you're so sure of these things. One would think that your dismissal of truth wouldn't leave you much firm ground to stand on.
I just don't get it. I thought we were at least half-way on the same page. This "truth" business has really thrown me for a loop. What the hell do you think "the truth" means? Is it just a dirty word to you? What is the point of any of this then? What is driving you to pursue any of this, if not the truth? Spite? Has the world been so grossly unfair to you that you need to deny any kind of objective existence whatsoever? Did Madeleine have the world with her too in that over-sized purse of hers? Why this hostility to reason? Why this hostility to even the concept of the truth? I just don't get it.
Sorry to be blunt, but I don't have the patience to keep pulling my punches, and I'm really not interested in this "no truth" business. Come back when you've got a different song to sing.
In light of your new post, I have to wonder if I've taken your comments on the truth the wrong way. But then I'm not sure exactly how I was supposed to take them, or why you seem to find the word so distasteful. I'm just confused. I would say that perhaps I took your remarks too literally, but is there a way of talking about the truth that isn't literal? Isn't the truth by definition, literal?
ReplyDelete...and I still really, really don't like that consensus idea. I don't agree with that at all.
ReplyDeleteOh, this is wonderful stuff, Bryan, and I’m glad you made it into a whole post.
ReplyDeleteYou’re absolutely right. I don’t go for the phrase “The Truth”. I will go so far as to say that it seems to me a religious-fundamentalist concept; as if there is an entity called The Truth, which it is our mission to find. In absolute terms, I don’t believe there is such a thing. Truth certainly has a meaning in a context. “Did you plagiarise your essay, Bryan? Tell me the truth!” But there is no overarching Truth (about the Universe) unless somewhere there sits an infallible Judge, who certifies it with a Great Seal. There are only opinions on various matters. Or—better—there may be a general sense (disputed by a minority, no doubt) that such-and-such is the best truth available at the time.
Example: “Is there a God? What is the Truth?” My answer, in brief: “The question cannot be answered.” But I don’t think my answer is The Truth. Others have definite answers which they would be ready to die for, even though it is not a clear question.
In a court of law, the truth is something a witness must utter, on oath. So if the judge in an earthly court asks me, under oath, if I believe in God, there must be a truthful answer. My flippant one would be “So help me God, I do not, m’Lord.” My actual one, under fear of contempt of court, would be “M’Lord, I’m an agnostic. I do not know.”
And as for this construction business. Actually I meant to say construct. Apart from that I stand by what I said but it is nothing personal. Anybody's idea of the world is necessarily a construct.
ReplyDeleteExample: you get to know someone over time through telephone conversations. You build up a picture in your mind of this guy's face. It's natural. His accent reminds you of someone you know. The gravelly voice makes you think he is of a such-and-such an age, probably drinks whisky and smokes cigars; has a five-o-clock shadow and bags under his eyes. then you meet him and discover that he's a youngish black man. Then you laugh at the construct you had built up.
Anything we think of the world is a construct but we cannot ever find out what it really is, in any sense of knowing and in any sense of the world, because it is too big.
That is what I meant. And it's another way to support my dismissal of Truth (the one with the capital T).
Whatever we do with our editing for the book, Bryan, your post must go in uncut. Even if we have to fit everything else round it. It's brilliantly funny and we need that: whilst being utterly to the point.
ReplyDeleteI took the liberty of changing the date according to our agreed scheme; and of altering “realty” to “reality” in your title.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad you got a kick out it. You know, I was thinking...I was like, "I've gotta say this. I've gotta get this off my chest, even if it pisses him off and he throws me off this project." It was like the elephant in the room, staring me in the face. Now, I keep thinking of you reading this and laughing your ass off and going, "This is priceless. This should be the centerpiece of the book." It reminds me of how my father would have reacted. You're alright, Vincent.
ReplyDeleteAnd when you put it like that, I guess I can appreciate your aversion to the idea. There really is nothing more obnoxious than having some fanatic badger you about THE TRUTH. For me though, I don't have a problem with the idea of an "overarching truth" as much as I do with the presumptuous jack-ass who claims to hold the exclusive rights to it, especially when it seems like people's belligerence in the matter is inversely proportionate to the amount of solid evidence they possess.
"Hey Bob, is it true you drive a Lexus?"
"Yup."
"Hey Bob, is it true that there's a God?"
"OBVIOUSLY. I can't believe you doubt our Lord enough to even ask such a blasphemous question. How dare you! Satan must have dug his claws into your mind. Come over to my desk. I have some literature that will set you on the right path my wayward fr...hey, where are going?"
As for your "constructs" and your telephone faces, it's funny how often we notice the same thing, but yet put a slightly different spin on our interpretations. I've been amused by the same thing for years, not so much with faces, but rather with places. I read a book or a blog, and someone's talking about a house, and I can't help but imagine that it's all happening in my house, or a house I used to live in. It amazes me too how my imagination will automatically adjust to whatever limited details I have, or whatever new details come in. I read one blog written by a girl in her early twenties, living in a small apartment with her boyfriend. So naturally I imagine them living in the little apartment that my wife and I lived in when we were that age. She works in a music store, so I picture a music store I used to go to. Why that store and not half a dozen others I used to go too? I have no idea. I know of course that it's probably nothing like that, but it's like I can't help it. I've always thought of it as my imagination just filling in the gaps. There were a couple of times when my wife and I were house hunting that I would go to work every night and whatever book I was reading, it would all be happening in whatever house we looked at that day. That was also helpful in deciding which house to pick. "Well, Huck Finn seems to like it there. Sydney Carton doesn't seem to care to much for that place." All of Don Quixote happened in this house while I was waiting for the loan to go through, and before I ever moved in.
ReplyDeleteTelephone constructs. In my mind, Bryans voice sounds something like mine does when it's not inside my head. Just a little deeper. And Vincent sounds remarkably like Ian Mckellen. And some days I am not sure if I'm chatting with Gandalf or Magneto.
ReplyDeleteThat's funny, because I can never quite fix an English accent on Vincent, although I know he must have one. I wonder if he has that same trouble with us and our American accents.
ReplyDeleteWould be delighted to test out these voice hypotheses. My skype identity is vincent.wayfarer & google chat is Vincent M. I don't know if I have trouble with your American accents or not. but look forward to having more trouble.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, I don't have a webcam. I've been meaning to get one too.
ReplyDeleteThe essentials are a microphone and earphones. Speakers cause echo (which Skype blanks out leaving dead time). My computer is too old and slow for webcam. It can hardly show video.
ReplyDeleteI've been thinking about Skype for awhile. My webcam is crummy and I rarely use it for anything besides silliness. The wife uses Skype to chat with her friend in Scotland. Angela is a Brit who married a Scotsman. Her hubby Roddie has a deep brogue which makes him difficult to understand at times. Of course he says the same thing about me. It's fun to listen to sometimes.
ReplyDelete